No, chassis bars. They go from the front, to the rear of the car.
Used on and designed for drag cars, but also very good on road/track cars, and proven!:-D
Strut braces- Are they worth it?
- Thread starter GTiRlover
- Start date
No, chassis bars. They go from the front, to the rear of the car.
Used on and designed for drag cars, but also very good on road/track cars, and proven!:-D
It helped to reduce understeer. When I fitted my ARB I headed off to Spa Francorchamps in Belgium on a trackday; I was impressed with the overall handling of the car and reduced understeer.
It was difficult to compare it to anything else, but it felt more confident round the sweeping corners. However, back on UK roads there was more front end grip when using roundabouts; overall a good handling addition.
My car has a neutral feel when driven on track, but that’s how I want it.
On the road I’d say that an ARB would be a good buy, the front ARB is only (iirc) 1mm different from the OEM one, so go figure!
My setup is very stiff for the road, but that’s also down to the stupidly hard springs I use. Well chosen coilover springs (or whatever you use) are important for road use. Use the search engine as there are lots of discussions about it. :thumb:
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I don't run an ARB and it helped reduce understeer.
Noticed it alot more in the rain to, I went for a drive before I took it off, then took it off and went for another on the same route, and I went to a roundabout I know well, and I never had no understeer after taking it off!
I was advised taking it off buy a guy that rallies to, before people moan ;-):lol:
Noticed it alot more in the rain to, I went for a drive before I took it off, then took it off and went for another on the same route, and I went to a roundabout I know well, and I never had no understeer after taking it off!
I was advised taking it off buy a guy that rallies to, before people moan ;-):lol:
There has been a ton of debate on having the ARB, and not having it.
I've come to the conclusion that it's a good idea to keep it when you have (fairly) standard suspension, but if you've been uprating everything then the ARB is probably starting to hold you back.
What do you have Radleigh? I like the idea of dialing-out the understeer and will take the advice of people who know more than me. I've come to the conclusion from this thread that I don't need strut braces because mine is a daily driver... and the wife won't be able to get shopping in the back if I put a rear brace in anyway!
I've still got mine, but the damage to my floor pan from all those garages that have jacked the car there instead of the jacking points means that it's not quite what it should be... but I bought new bushes for the droplinks so I feel obliged to keep it for now.
I've come to the conclusion that it's a good idea to keep it when you have (fairly) standard suspension, but if you've been uprating everything then the ARB is probably starting to hold you back.
What do you have Radleigh? I like the idea of dialing-out the understeer and will take the advice of people who know more than me. I've come to the conclusion from this thread that I don't need strut braces because mine is a daily driver... and the wife won't be able to get shopping in the back if I put a rear brace in anyway!
I've still got mine, but the damage to my floor pan from all those garages that have jacked the car there instead of the jacking points means that it's not quite what it should be... but I bought new bushes for the droplinks so I feel obliged to keep it for now.
GAB adjustable suspension, Not sure on springs (will have to dig out the paper work for that) poly bushed all round, standard rear ARB, no front ARB.
Will be getting the Whiteline ARB for the rear, Going to keep the GAB's for now they aint bad imo.
Will get it tracked, and all the suspension looked at and thats me for the time being. Will be spending money else where as its fine handling
I have camber/toe settings somewhere, will post shortly
Will be getting the Whiteline ARB for the rear, Going to keep the GAB's for now they aint bad imo.
Will get it tracked, and all the suspension looked at and thats me for the time being. Will be spending money else where as its fine handling
I have camber/toe settings somewhere, will post shortly
Firstly thanks for the replies guys, its all very interesting!
bracpan- I have been reading about the Whiteline products on their website and like you say they have all been designed specifically to improve the handling of the R and they seem to have good results! You say buy all the products you can afford but if I was to buy their products I would rather do so one at a time so I can be sure of the improvements/ differences each modification has to the handling. Which of their products would you recommend to help reduce understeer (my pet hate!!)? I already have adjustable coilover suspension with the tracking setup... Also from your racing experience, without giving too much away, which product have you been most impressed with that has helped improve the handling of your car? Also from a racing perspective what is your opinion of reomving the ARB?
Radleigh- chassis bars sound a good idea but I don't know of any companies that make them for the R. Have you seen any advertised? It is very interesting what yo say about not having an ARB and the affect this has had on reducing understeer. What is the reasoning for removing it?
fubar andy- thank you for your comments about the rear ARB. It seems there is a popular consensus that an adjustable rear ARB has a positive influence in reducing the dreaded understeer. How exactly does the rear ARB help provide more front end grip? I'll have a look through old posts about ARBs, I did have a look through before posting about strut braces but the conversation seems to have changed somewhat!...
PobodY- why would the ARB hold you back with an uprated chassis setup? Like you I don't really think I need strut braces for road use but the ARB talk has got me thinking!
bracpan- I have been reading about the Whiteline products on their website and like you say they have all been designed specifically to improve the handling of the R and they seem to have good results! You say buy all the products you can afford but if I was to buy their products I would rather do so one at a time so I can be sure of the improvements/ differences each modification has to the handling. Which of their products would you recommend to help reduce understeer (my pet hate!!)? I already have adjustable coilover suspension with the tracking setup... Also from your racing experience, without giving too much away, which product have you been most impressed with that has helped improve the handling of your car? Also from a racing perspective what is your opinion of reomving the ARB?
Radleigh- chassis bars sound a good idea but I don't know of any companies that make them for the R. Have you seen any advertised? It is very interesting what yo say about not having an ARB and the affect this has had on reducing understeer. What is the reasoning for removing it?
fubar andy- thank you for your comments about the rear ARB. It seems there is a popular consensus that an adjustable rear ARB has a positive influence in reducing the dreaded understeer. How exactly does the rear ARB help provide more front end grip? I'll have a look through old posts about ARBs, I did have a look through before posting about strut braces but the conversation seems to have changed somewhat!...
PobodY- why would the ARB hold you back with an uprated chassis setup? Like you I don't really think I need strut braces for road use but the ARB talk has got me thinking!
Rollbars are there for a reason so I would not remove them. The car might well oversteer more without them but overall you will have less grip as abviously the car will roll more is common sence really, so just sort our better ones. (Whiteline rear to start) one thing you must do is poly bush everything.
The 2 most noticable improvments (as I did most of my suspension mods all in one go) were the lower 4 location strut brace, but the biggest imrovment to stiffen up the car was undoubtably the full rollcage. But again my cage is a bit extreme for the road as you lose the back seats and it goes thru the dash. I also raced a Pulsar with GAB suspension units and they were C**p. Spring rates and damper rates were miles out. ( they were an ealry set so they might have inproved since then as they could not get worse).
Good luck
Phil
The 2 most noticable improvments (as I did most of my suspension mods all in one go) were the lower 4 location strut brace, but the biggest imrovment to stiffen up the car was undoubtably the full rollcage. But again my cage is a bit extreme for the road as you lose the back seats and it goes thru the dash. I also raced a Pulsar with GAB suspension units and they were C**p. Spring rates and damper rates were miles out. ( they were an ealry set so they might have inproved since then as they could not get worse).
Good luck
Phil
I guess that the theory is that the standard ARB at the front (and the back) is designed to work with the standard bushes/wheels/springs.
When you start changing them, the geometry changes and the ARB starts resisting it. The idea is that the ARB is essentially a spring and so it transfers pressure to the opposite side of the car when under load, preventing the chassis roll. Logically if the toe-in/camber/etc get changed then the ARB doesn't quite produce the desired effect any more.
Of course, I'm not basing this on anything other than anecdotal evidence. I don't really know enough suspension mechanics to justify this. It just seems to be that some people say removing their front ARB reduces the under-steer, and these people seem to have uprated suspension components. Those that don't either report no change, or worse handling without the ARB - I thought it made my steering feel a little sloppy.
The key could be as simple as the adjustable pillow with uprated struts - I remeber Jim (Campbellju) telling me that this was an incredibly cheap and simple fix for the handling on an R, but I couldn't do it because I don't have adjustable mounts. Andy might remember what he said because he was there at the time (NW meet).
Obviously I will continue to watch with interest, so that I too can have the best suspension setup for road use at the lowest cost. The hardest cornering I ever do is when I'm running late for work and try to get through the roundabouts on WOT... well that's a bit of an exageration, but flogging it hard around North Wales is just asking for them to prove their stance on motoring offences.
When you start changing them, the geometry changes and the ARB starts resisting it. The idea is that the ARB is essentially a spring and so it transfers pressure to the opposite side of the car when under load, preventing the chassis roll. Logically if the toe-in/camber/etc get changed then the ARB doesn't quite produce the desired effect any more.
Of course, I'm not basing this on anything other than anecdotal evidence. I don't really know enough suspension mechanics to justify this. It just seems to be that some people say removing their front ARB reduces the under-steer, and these people seem to have uprated suspension components. Those that don't either report no change, or worse handling without the ARB - I thought it made my steering feel a little sloppy.
The key could be as simple as the adjustable pillow with uprated struts - I remeber Jim (Campbellju) telling me that this was an incredibly cheap and simple fix for the handling on an R, but I couldn't do it because I don't have adjustable mounts. Andy might remember what he said because he was there at the time (NW meet).
Obviously I will continue to watch with interest, so that I too can have the best suspension setup for road use at the lowest cost. The hardest cornering I ever do is when I'm running late for work and try to get through the roundabouts on WOT... well that's a bit of an exageration, but flogging it hard around North Wales is just asking for them to prove their stance on motoring offences.
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This is the thread to what Jim was talking about. Click me
Personally I’d go for the rear ARB, it’s cheaper than going for a complete polybush set and it’s quicker to install (less time off the road). ;-)PobodY said:
I've done one thing at a time when it came to suspension so I understood the effects of each change. It also allowed me to understand that when you change one part another areas needs addressing.
I'd still install the bushes, but I’d do it one thing at a time, just my opinion
The Whiteline kit comes with polybushes in the box so your covered there! :thumb:
Something that I did find interesting was when some of my pug 106 bushes were on their way out I bought a whole set of brand new standard rubber bushes from a local motorfactor.
They made such a difference to the handling and when I was down the B road routes.
It was smoother and comfortable yet it didn’t crash over bumps and holes as the bushes were new, yet they offered that little flex it needed when on the bumpy B roads.
Not sure how much difference it would make to a road going GTiR, but it does make me think! :noidea:
I've been on the witeline site and got a link to an article in Zoom magazine.
...prone to understeer like most FWD (and many 4WD) cars then fitting a stiffer rear bar will bring the balance closer to neutral...if you fit stiffer springs or lower the car's centre of gravity you may need to change the stiffness of your swaybars to achieve the best handling balance again.
So I read that as: Stiffen the rear or soften the front to dial-out the understeer, but bear in mind that it will change when you adjust other suspension components.
It's also consistent with people taking off the front ARB to get rid of the understeer - you can't get much softer than no bar at all!
It then goes on to say ...if it's so easy to mess around with swaybars and achieve better handling, why don't manufacturers do it? The simple answer is that most cars are designed for the average driver to be safe in all conditions.... Possibly the cheapest suspension upgrade is simply fitting urethane bushes to your swaybar mounts. Whilst the stiffness of the bar doesn't change, the stiffness of the urethane bushes will affect how quickly the bar responds... For as little as $50 you can fit swaybar bushes to one end of your car (and then the other) . Money well spent and again, something you can do yourself.
So, maybe I'll look at polybushing the rear ARB to dial-in a little more stiffness and improve my cornering. I don't mind if it introduces a little oversteer in the wet - that I can cope with because I'm more used to RWD cars anyway.
...prone to understeer like most FWD (and many 4WD) cars then fitting a stiffer rear bar will bring the balance closer to neutral...if you fit stiffer springs or lower the car's centre of gravity you may need to change the stiffness of your swaybars to achieve the best handling balance again.
So I read that as: Stiffen the rear or soften the front to dial-out the understeer, but bear in mind that it will change when you adjust other suspension components.
It's also consistent with people taking off the front ARB to get rid of the understeer - you can't get much softer than no bar at all!
It then goes on to say ...if it's so easy to mess around with swaybars and achieve better handling, why don't manufacturers do it? The simple answer is that most cars are designed for the average driver to be safe in all conditions.... Possibly the cheapest suspension upgrade is simply fitting urethane bushes to your swaybar mounts. Whilst the stiffness of the bar doesn't change, the stiffness of the urethane bushes will affect how quickly the bar responds... For as little as $50 you can fit swaybar bushes to one end of your car (and then the other) . Money well spent and again, something you can do yourself.
So, maybe I'll look at polybushing the rear ARB to dial-in a little more stiffness and improve my cornering. I don't mind if it introduces a little oversteer in the wet - that I can cope with because I'm more used to RWD cars anyway.
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www.adrenaline-race.com will make you a set.
It was the front ARB I removed. Advised by a friend that rallies Escorts and that has a friend that races a Sunny GTiR. I trust him, and it works
Mine are fine, But I don't use GAB springs. I'm only keeping them as there ok at the moment, But when funds allow I will change them, but theres no need at the mo
P
pulsarboby
Guest
i totally agree with that
ive heard of people removing the front arb's before but its something i would never try as it is what it is and thats an anti roll bar!
as i said earlier the cage is the biggest difference it really does tighten everything up round the twisties.
also the understeer can be eliminated through the use of well chosen wheel spacers which will make car more inclined to oversteer.
ive been experimenting with these for a while now and they do work!
bracpan- sound advice regarding the anti-roll bars. Although a full-roll cage a little OTT for my car since it hasn't been on track and I don't use it for racing...
PobodY- so what you are saying is that having after-market suspension which is undoubtedly different to OE settings will have a knock-on effect with the rest of the chassis setup, therefore the front ARB is less effective at doing its job. This I understand. So would leaving the front ARB as it is and only fitting an uprated rear ARB still compromise the handling? I suppose this is why Whiteline have engineered front ARBs too. What size is the standard front ARB? Whiteline make 20mm and 27mm versions. I can't understand why they would make a larger front ARB because surely that would only increase understeer because it allows less roll...
Radleigh- how does your car handle in the wet without a front ARB?
pulsarboby- more info on the wheelspacers please! Have you used them front and rear? I presume if you have then the front track is ever-so wider to help with front-end grip?...
PobodY- so what you are saying is that having after-market suspension which is undoubtedly different to OE settings will have a knock-on effect with the rest of the chassis setup, therefore the front ARB is less effective at doing its job. This I understand. So would leaving the front ARB as it is and only fitting an uprated rear ARB still compromise the handling? I suppose this is why Whiteline have engineered front ARBs too. What size is the standard front ARB? Whiteline make 20mm and 27mm versions. I can't understand why they would make a larger front ARB because surely that would only increase understeer because it allows less roll...
Radleigh- how does your car handle in the wet without a front ARB?
pulsarboby- more info on the wheelspacers please! Have you used them front and rear? I presume if you have then the front track is ever-so wider to help with front-end grip?...
Wet is totaly different you should disconect or soften your ARB's, but I dont think your going to do that every time it rains.
As I said in the begining if your car is only going to be used on the road get as much of the Whiteline stuff as you can,,,,,,job done.
Road and track are two totaly different things so need totaly different setups, as driving a track setup on the road full time is a total pain.
Start with strut braces, bushes and the rear ARB and add more you can.
Phil
PS Get a set of Goodyear F1's as well....
As I said in the begining if your car is only going to be used on the road get as much of the Whiteline stuff as you can,,,,,,job done.
Road and track are two totaly different things so need totaly different setups, as driving a track setup on the road full time is a total pain.
Start with strut braces, bushes and the rear ARB and add more you can.
Phil
PS Get a set of Goodyear F1's as well....
I'm no expert - I'm just listening to what people say, taking a look at some references, and drawing some conclusions.
It stands to reason that if you uprate other suspension components you start asking more of the bits that are linked to them.
As I understand it, stiffening the rear will force more of the chassis roll to the front causing the weight to load more onto those tyres and make them bite more. The Whiteline front ARB is thinner than the OEM one, so that's consistent with softening the front and tightening the back. I don't know that compromising the handling is the best way to describe it. Maybe 'changing the handling characteristcis' basically if you give the front more grip, you have to take it from the back. I think what that article was saying is that if you can steer a car out of oversteer then you're better off with the front-end grip than with chronic understeer... but if you can't you'll spin the car every time it's a bit slippery. - You can see that this might be better for a road car than it is for a track car where, as others have already said, you want the chassis as stiff as possible and make the suspension components do the work.
Maybe the larger front ARB is for track applications - stiffer springs require a stiffer ARB to achieve the same result?
Braveheart
New Member
Interesting and useful thread....
I've been reluctant to fit the front whiteline ARB's because they did not look as beefy as the OE front bars and I was happy with the neutral handling that I have at the moment (little to no understeer) but they will soon be fitted along with the rear adjustable ARB's. A wide range of bushes will get replaced at the same time. 14 year old parts can't be good!
With Radleighs coments regarding better handling well no understeer maybe with the front bars removed. I can understand why that might be, but this would not be advisable on a track car when there's plenty of grip. The front will roll, too much energy taken up by the suspension, chassis and possibly tyre side wall making the tyre less likely to step out but this would not be a pretty sight on a track. You really want to have as stiff a setup as possible under these conditions. That's where braces and roll cage really come into there own. Stiffening the entire chassis through seam weilding and cross bracing would be a nice luxury as well. Foam filling the chassis... http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108496
You might get away without the front ARB on a cold wet slippy track but I still think you will loose time through the bends as the car rolls about. Understeer in the wet can be dialed out a bit by softening the suspension, reducing tyre pressure and adding a touch more -ve camber and of course Pulsarbobs wheel spacer formula... ;-)
I've been reluctant to fit the front whiteline ARB's because they did not look as beefy as the OE front bars and I was happy with the neutral handling that I have at the moment (little to no understeer) but they will soon be fitted along with the rear adjustable ARB's. A wide range of bushes will get replaced at the same time. 14 year old parts can't be good!
With Radleighs coments regarding better handling well no understeer maybe with the front bars removed. I can understand why that might be, but this would not be advisable on a track car when there's plenty of grip. The front will roll, too much energy taken up by the suspension, chassis and possibly tyre side wall making the tyre less likely to step out but this would not be a pretty sight on a track. You really want to have as stiff a setup as possible under these conditions. That's where braces and roll cage really come into there own. Stiffening the entire chassis through seam weilding and cross bracing would be a nice luxury as well. Foam filling the chassis... http://www.b15sentra.net/forums/showthread.php?t=108496
You might get away without the front ARB on a cold wet slippy track but I still think you will loose time through the bends as the car rolls about. Understeer in the wet can be dialed out a bit by softening the suspension, reducing tyre pressure and adding a touch more -ve camber and of course Pulsarbobs wheel spacer formula... ;-)
I'll also add that I've done two track days with no front ARB, I admit the car was a handful to being a bit 'oversteer happy', but it felt alot better.
I will put a front ARB back on, but it wont be the standard size it'll either be a whiteline or a custom one, as the standard one is to thick imo.
I will put a front ARB back on, but it wont be the standard size it'll either be a whiteline or a custom one, as the standard one is to thick imo.